Chaps: Who are we meant to be?

(This is a radically reworded version of this post - I didn't really communicate what I meant to first time round)

Here's one attempt to answer this - try this test (not too seriously) ... from a book entitled "No More Christian Nice Guy" ...

There's a lot being said and written at the moment about what God intends men and women to be. One comment that has appeared more than once on blog posts about godly masculinity has been "(why) does this only apply to men?". This makes me think about what difference it makes to be male or female under God, and how gender might influence the way God deals with us, how we respond to him and so on.

What I see in the Christian community concerns me. Coming from a male perspective, I'm concerned about how many Christian men are struggling to know who they are really meant to be, and to understand what implications that has for being husbands, fathers, sons, leaders, prophets, agents for change and so forth. From many conversations in recent years, I can only conclude that many Christian men harbour some degree of doubt and lack of confidence about what they have to offer the world, the church, the lost, their wives, children and all the other people that matter to them.

There is so much being written and said about what manhood and masculinity are all about. The burden I increasingly feel is to get to the heart of what God intended for us as men, and to discover how God deals with a man in a way which affirms and draws out his masculinity specifically, and not just his humanity in a general way. I would want there to be similar and parallel understanding of how God deals with a woman in a way which affirms and draws out her femininity specifically, and not just her humanity in a general way.

What I'm searching for is the basis for a man to feel secure in his created identity in a way which frees him to live out of a place of quiet inner humble strength, and does away with the need to prove himself, to abuse power or abuse other people, to run away from his weaknesses, and that kind of thing.

Comments

[finker]

so are you advocating quite distinct roles for men and women? How far do you go with this? And isn't there a difference between what you maybe classify as "weak" and the simply lazy or apathetic? love finker

[Richard L]

I don't quite follow - which roles are you thinking of? I used the word "job" quite loosely, rather than to refer to a fixed shape of role that would apply to all men and women.

e.g. in a church leadership setting, people usually have some idea of what they think the leader should be and do, and whether or not the leader is fulfilling that or not. I have observed people in church life who get frustrated with what they feel are the leader's failures, and believe the answer is to try to take over and do it better themselves, in a self-appointed kind of way.

Of all the Christian men I know and work with, and deal with, I'd have to say that most of us feel we are less than we should be, and perceive that the women around us are stronger spiritually. But in most of those same men there is a desire to discover what godly masculinity is in a way which is not oppressive to or threatened by women, or a return to patriarchy, nor a perpetual laddishness, nor a resignation to being "nice" domesticated men whose wild side is neutered.

As to your second question, aren't laziness and apathy forms of, or symptoms of weakness?

And what do we mean by "weakness"? I would say that someone who refuses to step up to the plate and face responsibility or their own woundedness is weak, whereas someone who has, for example, found themselves in a leadership position and are only too aware of their flaws, needs, unhealed stuff, but who is working hard to overcome those, and be all they can be despite them, is quite a strong person. This is the weak\strong paradox of 2 Cor 12.

Also to say that most of us are a mixture of weakness and strength. We can be weak in some things, faced with certain challenges, or certain kinds of people, and strong and bold in others. All of this can be affected by mood, diet, sleep patterns, life circumstances etc etc ...

Finally, I haven't read this book yet - I hope it will be a book of substance, and not a reactionary one, as "men's books" can sometimes be.

Any thoughts?

[Lorna]

funny

as a woman I don't want to be called nice either

daring, courageous, loyal, loving, fun, dependable, crazy yeah - nice no.

I wasn't terribly keen on your statement "that many women have got to this position out of frustration, and are not happy about this state of affairs," but will wait to hear more :)

No one wants a weak spouse, but we do all have weaknesses and those can be our greatest strengths.

I love my husband for his sense of humour and honesty, his loyalty and dependability and his reliabiliy. He's no pushover but he's one of the kindest people I know - and no I'm not biased in this area. Ask anyone!

His only real weakness is lack of patience when trying to teach something - especially me on the computer - or when he gets frustrated because something just won't go right.

But I wouldn't call him nice. What an insult!

[Richard L]

Lorna ... could you say a bit more about what you weren't keen on? No insult was intended ...

I'm drawing conclusions based on a lot of people watching, conversation, pastoral work, reading, hearing others speak and so on ... that there are issues to be addressed in our culture and in the church about what men and women are created to be, how we are sometimes falling short of that, and what

I did say that "I suspected" it was sometimes the case, but of course it will certainly not apply to everyone.

I'm aware I was generalising wildly, though the comment is based on a lot of people watching, and on conversation with a number of women friends, and simply watching and observing marriages and relationships of all kinds in Christian circles, and on what I've read and heard said by others.

[Lorna]

no offence taken.

it's after midnight here so I'l come back tom with an answer of sort.

I think I'm having an identity crisis so it might just be I reacted to that :)

be blessed. Your blog challenges in a good way.

[Richard L]

Thanks for that ... I realised that something in the original post didn't come from a good place inside me, but rather from a place of things that hadn't been brought to the Cross - and what we say at such times rarely draws the best out of others.

[Lorna]

ok I'm back and have re-read the re-written post. Richard, there are places in me that haven't been brought to the cross either and as a woman I struggle too with my role.

You write:
"Coming from a male perspective, I'm concerned about how many Christian men are struggling to know who they are really meant to be, and to understand what implications that has for being husbands, fathers, sons, leaders, prophets, agents for change and so forth. From many conversations in recent years, I can only conclude that many Christian men harbour some degree of doubt and lack of confidence about what they have to offer the world, the church, the lost, their wives, children and all the other people that matter to them."

I agree completely. What is interesting though is that if you change all of this to the female gender you have a direct glimpse of what we as women of God struggle with too.

I'm a pastor-to-me, a mum, a wife, a teacher and above all I'm a child of God - and I struggle daily to reconcile these things - if reconcile is the best word?
I feel I too am an agent for change, but I hold back time and time again for numerous reasons.

There is a degree of doubt and insecurity in ALL of us, and I believe it comes from being insecure in our identity in Christ.

I'm sorry that this is really vague, I just can't find the words. I know that this is equally difficult for Christian men, and the question is why, why why? sigh. No answers here I'm afriad but I know someone who does have the answers - HIM

be blessed as you wrestle with this brother ! Thanks for a glimpse into the struggle from your perspective. :)

[Richard L]

Thanks - I appreciate your honest insights, and the glimpse of things from your perspective is helpful as I'm seeking a balanced perspective on this whole issue.

You write: "What is interesting though is that if you change all of this to the female gender you have a direct glimpse of what we as women of God struggle with too." I'd like to hear more about this - what are the key battles in the area of identity, role etc that women are facing in our day?

I also wonder how much of the writing about masculinity is subconsciously driven by an attempt to define identity from the outside in i.e. reaction or an "oversteer" against insecurity and the loss of old certainties, roles, places of power, safe havens ...

This connects with your other point about identity. I thought identity would get more settled as life went on, and in some ways it has (in terms of being a child of God, loved, created for a purpose etc) but that's too "high level" a description for day to day living.

If this is true, I suspect that our insecurity is often less to do with a shaky identity in Christ (at least in a pure theological sense), but to do with the messy reality of working that out in terms of roles, tasks, priotities, and so on in a broken world and in relationship with others.

The insecurity, in my experience, also comes from trying to be authentically who we are but finding that it isn't always acceptable to other people or structures. (I've learned that this often as much to do with their issues as it is with mine!)

In other ways as life gets more complex and "out there", I seem to live out of a smaller and smaller place inside, but it is a place that is increasingly strong as I keep bumping into God there. Perhaps we could say that this is all about layers being stripped away until, as Calvin put it, "all we want is Jesus".

Q: Who are you?
A: The sum of everything I am in HIM
Q: What is that in practice?
A: Erm ...

"On Christ the solid rock I stand" ... "I want to know Christ ... " (I had a sudden and powerful sense of his presence as I typed that as if to confirm it... thank you Lord!) ...

More to come on this ... maybe a "paper" or something a bit more substantial than a blog comment ...

Thanks again for engaging with this.

[Curious Servant]

My son asked me how he could get a girlfriend and what do women want? (He's a H.S. freshman.)

I told him that he tends to follow girls around like apupy and that will only lead them to use him.

I told him that I thought what a man should be is a king. He should be able to have a plan and know where he is going with it. That he should be a leader, but that means taking the risks as well.

I said a good king holds his head up, and is willing to die for his people. That if he wants to be a good man, he should have an idea of what he wants and that when the right girl sees that, she will be glad to follow where he leads.

[Lorna]

Richard

Your thoughts continue to seep in. and challenge

you see deep down we all - male and female (slave and free, Jew and gentile) really struggle to know who we are and God's purpose in our lives.

I think it runs very deep. Part of it IS our weak identity in Christ, part is our lack of faith that God loves us for who we are - not what we do -and that drives us into doing doing doing or fear failing because we just can't do it anymore (does that make sense?)

I think we all harbour some degree of doubt (deep down) and lack of confidence about what we have to offer the world, the church, the lost, and our families and friends.

our lack of identity in Him, is a real insecurity and breeding ground for the enemy's whisper - who do you think you are? and what difference can you make.

It makes us fearful and impotent.

as I woman I deal with all these things - almost daily. I love God - but with all my heart? No, there is still fear and walls there (my heart is like a walled garden sometimes) and so the promise of Jeremiah 29 - you will find me when you seek me with all of your heart is only partially fulfilled, because time and time I draw back

fear of intimacy?
fear of failure?
fear of having misunderstood scipture and the meaning of God

and then at times - like you said - I cry out *I want to know YOU* and there He is and there I am, in His midst and the fears subside and I'm free, free to be loved for who I am - free to step out into the world knowing that nothing else matters as much as He does.

it's a daily battle though.
and now I stop having taken up quite too much of your space.

[wilsonian]

Richard & Lorna-- I have really appreciated your conversation here. Really good stuff. And I appreciate the loving spirit of unity as I've read through. Really beautiful.

I can't speak to this as eloquently as either of you, but I'd like to add one more thing to the conversation...

I truly pray that men can find the freedom they need to discover their truest selves in Christ. I pray that they are able to explore what it is to be masculine in the way God intended.

But I pray that in doing so, they don't feel the need to restrict others from being who they are.

When we become our truest selves in Christ, it shouldn't take away from others doing the same.

Here's where I'm coming from. I'm female. I was born with a talent in carpentry. It was how I made my living for several years. I could use that talent everywhere but around Christian men. Can't tell you how many times it was pointed out how "unnatural" that was, how I was less than female. Can't describe how it felt to be having a great time with God, fixing something at church, only to have a man come up, take my tool out of my hand, and shoulder me out of the way. I was no threat. I had no desire to be in charge. Just wanted to quietly use my talents for God. Not surprisingly, I stopped attempting to use that talent there years ago.

Now, I love these guys. I do. Great fellas. But somehow along the way, they were never taught how to walk along side. They never understood that when I look to explore who I am, it takes nothing away from who they are.

And I look forward to your paper, Richard :)

[Richard L]

Thanks for that, Erin. Yes it has been a helpful and enriching dialogue.

Guys have taken tools out of your hands??!? I'm ashamed to be male when I hear that. Try doing it to them, but wear protective clothing first!

Yes, you touch on something of vital importance, that the true self is one which is secure enough to welcome and celebrate the strength of others because it isn't a threat to oneself. How I long to be this person, and see others becoming it too.

Funny thing though - how insecurity works and shows itself ... I find it rears up in me when I see in someone younger than me who embodies something I feel I should have been by now. This comes from being a late starter in some ways and feeling I wasted a lot of time in my 20s. God has been so good to me in buying back time, but there's still some work to do in the areas of regret and disappointment.

But I sense it in other men too - it's hard to be around people who are flourishing if you feel you are struggling. It takes a lot of inner poise to be able to do that. It is so much easier (God forgive us) to deal with that discomfort by pulling others down to our level, either by demonising them and focusing on their negatives, or by criticising them in public.

Maybe like a lot of blokes I do have a way of doing things, and I don't like people interfering with that, or trying to take over. But I am trying to grant others that same grace - if I ask someone in church to do something, I try to be "hands off" unless they're way off course with it.

Whatever I say about men's shortcomings are writ large in me, but the Father has got a strong grip of me and is pruning away, so who knows what will be left in 5 years ... LOL ... but God is good at producing strong vines out of remnants so watch this space!

I can think of two male church leaders I have met who are both aged 65+. One is an elder - wise, peace-giving, insatiably curious about people, an enabler by all accounts, seems to live out of a place of inner stillness, a gifted spiritual director. The other is still trying to prove himself. I know whose company I prefer, and who I would more aspire to be! No prizes ...

My aims:
1. To work through the turbulence of emerging into adult masculinity enough to increasingly become a "net giver". (oops a split infinitive :) )
2. To become, and encourage in other men, the kind of full-orbed godly man who is secure enough to be a source of life, growth, encouragement to others, rather than living a less than life which is marked by envy, insecurity, controlling and so on.

It's a journey towards the former, and the latter will always be there in some measure, BUT IT NEEDN'T BE THE MAIN PLACE MEN LIVE OUT OF ... the themes of the old life should increasingly be played "in a minor key" as life proceeds.

I use the term "paper" in a loose sense, but I'd like to gather various bits of thinking and mulling in one place and see what it looks like. Will post when I've done it, whenever that will be!

Blessings ... another day, another opportunity, another step forward.

[Lorna]

"it's hard to be around people who are flourishing if you feel you are struggling" oh this crosses the gender line too :)

I put my faith on hold for about half of my adult life - maybe that's why I love being around young people, new believers. They challenge me and teach me so much :) Sometimes when asked about something I'm tempted to look over my shoulder to see who they are really talking too.

Erin's discussion about carpentry really made me think too. Boy I'd love to have you visit us here - we could sure use your practial skills and yeah your example too.

I long to see men and women working side by side - unthreatened, encouraging one another, whether it's cleaning toilets, baking cakes, renovating the sanctuary, helping in a soup kitchen, working with kids, or up there in the pulpit. For me the teaching that there is no more male or female, slave or free, Jew or gentile is all about that. Together we serve God.

(Just saw your comment over at my place Richard - made me smile - I love hearing stories of healing - however God arranges it -pushing back that box we try to squash Him in time and time again)

Be blessed

[Richard L]

Thanks again for your comments.

I'm not sure I'd agree though about the way Paul's teaching about "neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile etc" might apply to situations where men and women are able to work in harmony together.

Isn't that teaching more about who gets to be a member of the new Israel of God, whose sole grounds for membership is faith in Christ? In light of that, no one can use gender, religious heritage, social class etc. as grounds for inclusion or exclusion.

That probably isn't what you were saying, but I have heard that text used to make that point before in a way which seemed to flatten male\female distinctiveness instead of celebrating it, almost making men and women interchangeable (this rings bells with a previous post, but it's late and I need to down tools for the day)!

[Lorna]

Oh I think we should celebrate our differnces and love to do so :)

you are quite right I did quote it out of context and should know better! That quote is not all about equality. It is about salvation which is based on faith alone.

What I should have said is that the spirit of God is what makes us able to work side by side irrespective of gender (among other things) - at least it should.

One of the greatest things I've been involved in is Christamas meal for the unemployed and their families here in my city - where many denominations get together to help. and men and women work to make it happen. It's the unity God wants.

cooks do cooking
those handy with knives peel and prepare vegetables
those who are good at socialising talk to the ppl
creative make bible verses and welcome notes, decorate tables etc
business oriented get companies to donate food and candles etc
and ppl help wash up and clean toilets.

It's amazing and I wish we did it more than once a year.